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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12658
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:48:26 -
[1] - Quote
From the company that brought you Sov Wanding, now, pay to win skill system.
Stay tuned next week for the introduction of unicorns...pay to win unicorns! |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12658
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alt Pilot1 wrote:Incurso wrote:I don't get all the hate EVE already has a pay to win option. Anyone with to much real life money and not enough brains or patience can drop several hundred dollars on a bought toon then a pile of PLEX. You may or may not figure out how to play well but you can go from zero to high skill and high end ships with out ever undocking once and in a few hours.
I assume it doesn't happen much because you have to pay ALOT to win.
IDEA: If this happens can we get some sort of slop bucket to train points we intend to sell? I have no interest in capital ships and I'm nearly max SP on the things I want. I would trade SP for ISK. I just don't want to give up the stuff I have now.
I think because Eve has too much E-Peen. A lot of older players want to be forever above the younger players, and don't want them to catch up that quickly. This new SP transfer system can be really good for Eve Online in the long run. It'll make it more noob friendly.
Famous last words.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12658
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Posted - 2015.10.15 16:58:07 -
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Arya Regnar wrote:I said this before and I will say it again. This is as close as it gets to pay to win.
FotM and all bad things just enhance this into a super bad idea.
I will survive if this goes through but the backlash of players will be baaaaaaaad.
I will too, but I think it's a bad way to go abut business.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12658
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Posted - 2015.10.15 17:00:20 -
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Querns wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Famous last words.
Yeah, how dare the game be more accessible!
As someone else already said, CCP's move to make the game "more accessible" have been smashing successes so for.
Naivety is a bad thing for a business.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12670
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Posted - 2015.10.16 12:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Tippia wrote:I care that you are able to pay to bypass a core game mechanic. which is what the character bazzar has been doing for people since whenever it was introduced. i'm glad you're fine with all of this, then. Same logic as plex. With the bazaar, at least someone HAD to endure the training, all the way. HAD to think about it, elaborate it. With skill sculpting, you not only able to put someone else's skill points freely and such, but you can also model your own char by "liposculpting" your skill pool. In the bazaar you cannot circumvent the time by agregating skill points from multiple chars in one. By means of skills modeling, you actually can put several chars to train in order to make a triple, ten fold, hundred fold, skill queue which then you just pull up to one single char. That is impossible using the bazaar.
+1
Why this is so hard for some to understand is beyond me. PLEX and the character bazaar are one thing, but the "skill sculpting" is another entirely.
CCP should take this thread as a warning of the reaction to come if they go ahead with this, not everyone reads forums/reddit/whatever.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12670
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Posted - 2015.10.16 13:28:03 -
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afkalt wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:a new player who starts playing today can't get past a few thousand SP. the character bazzar bypasses that limit. No it does not. The new player's characters are restricted by the same mechanics as everyone else's. You are confusing character and player. Put another way: you say that the character bazaar can bypass the game mechanic that determines how quickly characters acquire skills. Ok, let's test that. I want to train Tippia at 5,000 SP/h (which the new scheme will let me do) rather than the ~2,600 she's currently stuck at. Could you please point me to the post or process in the bazaar that lets me do this. And while you're there, show me where I can buy back T3 skills immediately after a welp. Because that will be a thing for big alliance. "Nice one guys, we actually beat the T3 blob, they're down for a few days to retrain, most likely" >LOLISK and we're back.
+1
This post embodies my opposition to the idea. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12672
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:12:25 -
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Sibyyl wrote:
Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
So you aren't reading Tippia's posts?
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12674
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:16:19 -
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Urziel99 wrote:Tippia wrote:Dave Stark wrote:and the issues arising from having more SP than your max allowed based on your character age is? The main issue is that you have to move the goalposts since you can't actually argue against the fundamental problem that this proposal creates. You knowGǪ how it will cause the fundamental problem that you will be able to skip game mechanics if you pay for it. That is an issue in and of itself. Or i could skip it by buying a whole pilot, lock, stock, and barrel from the bazaar. With plex that I paid cash for. So, this isn't any kind of earth-shattering development from that perspective. The only difference is that instead of paying tens of Billions of ISK (derived from plex sales) for a whole pilot at one time I instead pay smaller amounts at one time to touch up my existing pilot(s)
You buy a whole character warts and all, including a usually stupid name. And buying that character doesn't break things on other characters.
Peo0le thinking this is somehow good for 'accessibility' and 'new players' haven't learned the lessons the EVe experience has taught us for the last 12 years. CCP keeps making these kinds of mistakes because they see unwise feedback such as those in support of this change (while ignoring 'negative' feedback, only to learn later on that there was a reason for the negative feedback).
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12674
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:23:53 -
[9] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Anyone have any actual arguments for opposing it? Anyone?
Please list them.
So you aren't reading Tippia's posts? I read them. I don't see reasons against, just opinions.
I know for a fact you aren't this naive. i've seen you use good reasoning skills, I don't understand why you can't see (for yourself) why this is a bad idea. Maybe not $1000 jeans bad, but it's up there.
A game like EVE should cross certain lines. Things like PLEX and the character bazaar existing is one thing (necassary evils due to the fact that people will do bad things, like buy isk or sell characters on EBAY), but intentionally going beyond that, on purpose creating a situation where the people with lots of wealth end up having an easier go of it?
As it is now you have to buy what amounts to a flawed character if you want to 'speed things up' for yourself. This way experienced players get to make focused 'super characters' with zero skill training flaws powered by some dude's credit card.
Come on, you're telling me you can't see why this is a bad thing? Malcanis' Law is a real thing. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12675
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:32:31 -
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Sibyyl wrote:
Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too.
CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate.
Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar).
EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12675
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:34:20 -
[11] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
tippia has yet to say anything other than "muh sp" and buzzwords.
Then you aren't reading Tip's posts critically.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12681
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:38:31 -
[12] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
let me give you an example; "it's bad because it's bypassing mechanics" - dismissed with the obvious; we've been doing it for ages with the character bazzar.
We haven't been doing this with the Character Bazaar. The CB is a flawed process, those flaws (having to have an empty character slot, not being able to change name and so forth) make it a palatable necessary Evil.
In No place on earth is it a good idea to take a necessary evil and make it into a REAL evil......
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12681
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:39:44 -
[13] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:you know ccp looking at this thread and thinking about the vets saying we can just rinse our alts of sp and apply to our main, CCP: "yes this is working they are all talking about rinsing alts, they have to buy aurum to do that, op success"
I'm not a 'CCP is grabbing money' conspiracy theorist.
At least I wasn't till yesterday 
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12690
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:46:11 -
[14] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Jenn, it's good for all players not just new ones. Now I can customize my skills however I want without arbitrary restrictions on backing them out.
Why are these existing arbitrary restrictions against backing out skills good?
Those "arbitrary restrictions" are called "the spirit of the game". Having spaceships instead of elves is an arbitrary restriction too. CCP promised us that beyond necessary evils like PLEX and the Character Bazaar we would NEVER be able to use real life money to gain advantage in EVE Online. Being able to stuff the characters I use with SP (-minus whatever shrinkage they implement) from characters i don't use (5 of my character see little use currently) is going back on that promise made after Monoclegate. Instead of having to THINK about what I want to train on an upcoming character (like last night trying to decide if I wanted to spend 8 days getting a toon into a Svipul of keep on with the 8 days to tech2 medium beams so that toon could fly in Phantasm Fleets), it's just whip out the old credit card and have it all RIGHT NOW (for less than i would spend in the current Character Bazaar). EVE should never cater to such instant gratification instincts. Jenn, explain to me very specifically how this mechanic adds a pay to win vector that buying a perfect Svipul pilot from Character Bazaar doesn't already offer. Edit: Where did you get that it's less than Character Bazaar?
It works by offering a heretofore never before seen way to modify EXISTING characters. With the CB, you have to take a number of hits (open character slots, cash or 2 plexes to use, stuck with a dumb name etc). The proposed system takes away everything that makes the CB acceptable to those of us who actually like the existing nature of EVE online (where for the most part nothing is quick, and everything has to be earned).
Hard to believe that you are in love with a bad idea because it will let you bypass some of those things.
And of course it will be less than the CB, Have you never used it before? Buying a character ain't cheap. If it cost more to sculpt than to buy a character, no one would use it (and it would fail your 'accessibility' test, now wouldn't it).
I say again, you're one of the smarter posters here. Ask yourself why people you normally agree with are so against it and you will start to understand.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12690
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:49:56 -
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Sibyyl wrote:Laodell wrote:The choices you made during skill training are a permanent mark on the character and should be.
And now they won't be. Explain to me why that's bad.
Because it's a lessening of the game we are playing. Choices matter, they are the only things that give the experiences we have in EVE VALUE. This idea diminishes the value of the choices players make as well as the time they spend learning from and correcting their mistakes (and lets them do so with real life money in a way they previously could not), which diminishes the overall value of the game.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12693
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:14:19 -
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Estevan Andrard wrote:Well, they say "Each peoples have the government it deserves."
It seems "Each playerbase has the game they deserve."
CCP, do whatever you want. People will swallow it as it seems.
You're only half right. "People will swallow it as it seems" is the 1st half. "People will act like they weren't in favor of it and won't admit they were wrong about it when it proves to be a total disaster" is the other half.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12694
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:54:43 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Starbuck05 wrote:Players should not have the ability to instantly train certain skills at cost no matter how sweet the deal is but, there is a cost... the cost of training the sp, the cost of extracting the sp, the sp lost due to diminishing returns etc. there's a whole host of costs in lieu of "having a character name you hate and a potentially tainted history".
Those costs are meaningless. So what I lose 2-3-400k skills point in the exchange, I wasn't using the character it was extracted from in the 1st place.
With the Character bazaar , If i buy a character and want to use it along side an existing character, I have to have two accounts, ., This new system will not only let me use a character with a name I chose, but it will let me raid characters I don't use to buff that one character, at the 'cost' of some isk and skill points I was never ever going to use anyways...
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12694
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:04:28 -
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General Lootit wrote:Laodell wrote:When I joined Eve everyone had the same start on life. We were all equal to build our empire. Trading SP destroys that
When I joined Eve(about 25 days ago) most of players has much more SP than me and I have no chance at all to catch them what ever I do.
The great thing about EVE compared to other MMOs is that you don't need to 'catch up' to anyone. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12694
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:05:46 -
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beakerax wrote:Truckstop Hooker wrote:What's the big fear anyway? Some guy who has never played EVE before is going to spend $1000 to buy plexes No. The people against the idea, like everyone else reading the devblog, are planning on abusing this. That's the fear.
I sure as hell will.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12698
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:26:44 -
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Mr Epeen wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:100 pages in one day.
I would hope that the devs in question now realise their mistake, although them not doing so before hand is already bad enough.
The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo.It's not the size that matters, it's the content. And there's not a lot of content in this thread. Just froth and tears. Mr Epeen 
Half of the top ten are in favor of the change, including the guy who by far has the most posts, so it's people against the status quo posting over and over against and people for it posting much less often.
Thanks for the typical uninformed mr. epeen post, it's all this thread was lacking.
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Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
12701
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:29:35 -
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beakerax wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:The majority of posts are by around ten people having the typical forum meltdown you'd expect when CCP attempts to stray from the status quo. Actually, of the ten most prolific posters in this thread, only two are clearly against the change. Six are clearly in favour. e: make that five now, I guess
Damn, beat me to it.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12703
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:38:51 -
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Sibyyl wrote:
How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what).
EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way.
CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12706
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:50:43 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?
For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what). EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way. CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard. yeah but you can choose to also sell that character, and buy one without mining skills.... which is basically the same as just selling your mining skills in the proposed idea. there's really this new system does that the old system doesn't... except the new system cuts out a bunch of unnecessary steps.
You mean the steps that make the thing ok? Yea, that's exactly what it cuts out, which is what makes it a bad idea. The CB is balanced by it's deficits (ie needing a free character slot and the rest).
I'll say it again, when you have something that is a necessary evil (such as the CB, which only exists because some people will sell characters anyway, same as the relationship between RMT and plex), you live with it, maybe try to streamline it a little.
What you don't do is make it into a REAL evil , especially for the sake of revenue generation. And especially when CCP promised to not do things like this after monoclegate. CCP can fix the character bazaar without resorting to un-EVE like SP microtransactions (likewise CCP can fix EVE without resorting to gold ammo). |
Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
12712
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:56:56 -
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Sibyyl wrote:
Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been. But you didn't answer the question. Why do you think waiting is interesting gameplay?
Because it gives value to the gameplay when the wait is over. It makes the game play MEAN something.
Quote:
I think all of the waiting mechanisms in the game.. GCC.. Jump Fatigue.. are the opposite of interesting gameplay. In fact, these are reasons why people choose to log off (for the duration of the wait) and go do other things.
And that's fine, EVE isn't for everyone. If one is too un-creative to figure out what to do in game while they wait for something, that means they should learn patience, it doesn't mean "CCP, change the game now".
Quote:
Having to wait to PVP in a ship is not equivalent to getting free ships after you get destroyed. Skill allocation choices are not the same as choices you make in space. This is a game about choices in space. Why do you think skill allocation choices are a meaningful part of the game, apart from 'this is how it's always been'.
This is incorrect. It's not just about choices made in space. In the same way EVERY fight in EVE is decided while a player is docked, career progression ( a core part of the game) is decided at the skill que (again, with the one exception CCP has made, the Character Bazaar, which is in and of itself a kind of game.
I don't think you appreciate what this idea represents, or why many of us are against it. Do you think all of us are stupid? Do you think we don't want this game to be fun, or succeed? |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12712
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:00:01 -
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Dave Stark wrote:
if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should not exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity. |
Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:06:24 -
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beakerax wrote:
I can only view this devblog as an exercise in shifting the Overton window.
Dude, I said earlier that I'm not one of those suspicious types. I don't consciously think that someone at CCP would lead with an outrageous idea to get people riled up so then when they propose the much less radical changes to the Character Bazaar it will be much more palatable.
Oh wait, I do kind of think that. Damn. Someone go find Dinsdale Piranha's hanger and see if any tinfoil hats are left, i think I need one now......
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12718
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:07:46 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity. so because it shouldn't exist it has to be as ****** as possible? ... which just encourages that it exists to prevent. really?
Nope, they can reform the Character bazaar. The thing you are supporting is not reform of the character bazaar.
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Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:28:00 -
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Bad thing is, I could live with this lol.
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Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:34:15 -
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Sibyyl wrote:
'Represents'.. please elaborate without degenerating into buzzwords without explanations. No, I don't think you're stupid. You really should know that by now and I'm a bit miffed that you would think that.
Think that because that's what you are showing me right now.
Everything about this idea strikes me as wrong, I've explained as best I can why that is. Sorry if that isn't enough.
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Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:38:33 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity. so because it shouldn't exist it has to be as ****** as possible? ... which just encourages that it exists to prevent. really? Nope, they can reform the Character bazaar. The thing you are supporting is not reform of the character bazaar. i start with a character with one set of skills. i finish with a character with a different set of skills. it does exactly what the character bazzar does.
No it does not. The character bazaar doesn't like you do that with one character. It lets you buy another one.
I'm telling you, if this happens, it will be bad for the game, people will abuse it (I intend to, if for no other reason that to demonstrate to the DEVs why their idea was bad) and it will end up with CCP spending time and money to go back on it. It's better if this idea is still born now.
If I'm wrong, great, no harm done. But tell me, if what I predict is right and it ends up being bad, will you come back to this thread and say so? I'm willing to.
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Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:39:57 -
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Moac Tor wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Bad thing is, I could live with this lol. It actually seems like a great idea in comparison to what we have been discussing in this thread. Before this thread I would have said an outright no that is a terrible idea. Perhaps this was CCPs plan all along, then they tone it down and we are all happy because we have averted complete disaster. *chuckles*
When i go find me a tinfoil hat, I'll get one for you too. We can both be protected from government spying! |
Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.16 19:43:58 -
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Mag's wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Some stray observations. CCP said: We're getting rid of learning skills. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to add a skill queue The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to add a stat respec once a year. The rabble said: You just killed the game. We're all quitting. The game didn't die. The rabble are still here. CCP said: We are going to add multiple character training. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! The game didn't die and the rabble didn't quit. CCP said: We're going to make it a little easier on newbs by giving them a few SP to play with at start-up. The rabble said: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! EVE is still here and so is the rabble. CCP said: Were going to make SP trading a little less convoluted. The rabble are saying: You just killed EVE! We're all going to quit! I predict that the game won't die and the rabble is going nowhere. And thank God for that. I do so look forward to threads like this. Carry on, rabble. Carry on. ~ed~ Adding more as I think of them. Mr Epeen Mr Epeen, rewriting history, one post at a time. Please, do carry on.
lol..
But more seriously (serious face on), the mistake people make is thinking that all dissent is just some kind fo selfish knee jerk reaction. They think "you just don't like change", mainly because they gloss over all the time a change happens and people say "I like it".
Some people do have a reaction like that, but that's not all of us. Some ideas are actually bad. Not all change is good, rather each individual change MUST be judged on it's own merits.
The "any change is good change" people remind me of this commercial.
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Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.16 20:33:56 -
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Mr Epeen wrote:Maekchu wrote:
However, losing or winning a battle in EvE rarely comes down to not having that lvl 5 skill...
I'm so used to the abysmal use of the English language in here that the word losing jumped out at me as being the wrong spelling. That is scarier to me than this whole CCP just killed the game crap that is at the root of this Republican manifesto wrapped up in the guise of an SP allocation thread. Mr Epeen
And it's here that you see the prejudice that informs this posters thinking. |
Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.19 14:19:38 -
[34] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Rawthorm wrote:No different to buying a plex, selling it for ISK and then buying a cerebral accelerator and a top set of Implants with said ISK. I've now boosted my SP gain during that time window just the same as this new feature, just be it over a shorter time span. Oh, really? So today I can train up and skill a GUARANTEED unwatchlisted cyno alt in seconds using plex, can I? Because once this goes live, I can do that. And I absolutely 100% ******* guarantee EVERY super pilot will do this. There are far too many horrible offshoots to this specific implementation and furthermore it is caught in the paradox of being either ruthlessly exploitable by the old guard - or utterly worthless to newbeans. I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.
Exactly. Cyno alts. Incursion Alts. Burner and FW mission frigate/bomber alts will be instant, because you can do soooo many isk making things with low SP alts that it ain't even funny. And only people who know what they are doing will want to do that in the 1st place.
On a side note, I think I will start bookmarking the most naive posts people make when ideas like this come up so i can make a "remember when you thought this was a good idea" blog post somewhere about it years later lol.
Now that i think about it, I should have started in 2008 when they announced Dominion SOV, you know, that thing that was supposed to be WONDERFUL for new players and small groups
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Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.19 15:02:52 -
[35] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:
(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or -ú required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.)
CCP once believed that Titans and Super Carriers would be balanced by their outrageous cost. You should go back and ask them how well that worked out for them.
You do know that we play a game were people can make billions of isk per day in FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS in a very short period of time, right? And you know some people have 12 years of accumulated wealth now? Right? |
Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.19 17:53:37 -
[36] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Mag's wrote:CCP Terminus wrote:
Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation.
Ahh so a PR exercise, but it's still a done deal? Nice. Daniela Doran wrote:Yes I also really like to know if this is a done deal? The $144.00 usd I'm putting into Eve every month hinges on this decision. If it was a done deal we'd have put the dev blog out when it was going to be shipped. The whole point of the dev blog is to gather feedback and assess.
In fairness to CCP, there have been lots of devblogs about things that never came to pass so I don't believe this is a necessarily done deal.
And i get where y'all are coming from Terminus. But I hope y'all understand where many of us are coming from when we say we don't like the idea. It has nothing to do with killing the game or the sky falling. Like other past ideas (like for instance the "perma death" character idea) this one raises alarm bells for some of us, it feels like a well intentioned but ultimately misguided thing that strikes at the core of the game for no good reason, a fix for something that doesn't need fixing since the Character Bazaar works fine already.
Why not just enhance the character bazaar?
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Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.20 13:33:13 -
[37] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kaivar Lancer wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually I hate the idea of new players being expected (since that's what it'll become) to pay lots more RL money to just start playing the game. New players will not benefit from this change unless they invest a big chunk of cash. I really do hate that idea.
What do you mean? I've met quite a few newbies who hated Eve because you couldn't do anything to actively speed up SP and catch up with vets. If SP was buyable, newbies could actively "speed up" their SP by earning ISK and converting it into SP. This option accommodates more playing styles. And of course, newbies are competing on isk levels with the likes of me, farming WH's, right? I mean it's not like vets have hilarious levels of isk to spit out perfect alts on demand to a shifting meta. Nah that will NEVER happen  I mean sure it'll be expensive (so that clearly helps newbies) and that totally blocked super proliferation, too, right?
Isn't that always the case? CCP implements something that might work...if not for the 12 years of entrenched wealth that makes their efforts futile.
Even with out "old money" It's so easy to make isk now (going to be made even worse by this CONCORD tribute system idea), that any thought of something being balanced by cost is ridiculous. |
Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.20 14:12:01 -
[38] - Quote
Norian Lonark wrote: Seems that everytime there is a unique game which has some success the developer wants to grow it (obviously)and in trying to attract that new player base loses sight of what made the game have its success in the first place.
Can't like this enough.
So many business go wrong here, but especially game makers because gamers are the most fickle people in the history of people. Developers think that 'making things easier to get in to' is the way to go, not understanding the idea that gamers have preferences that aren't influenced by such considerations. For people who want to play a game like EVE, there is no such thing as a 'barrier to entry'. For people for whom EVE will never be their cup of tea, there is no access point low/easy enough to make them play.
Which is why the smart money is then on concentrating expansion effort of the kind of people who would like your product rather than those who won't no matter what. CCp has been trying to sell steak to vegans for a good 9-10 years now, with the results you'd expect.
Quote:What people enjoyed about playing the game is changed overtime chasing the carrot of new players and expansion and eventually turning it into something so far removed from the original concept that the people who actually played and stuck with the game are pushed out. This seems to happen with every MMO I have ever played. For me the worry isnt really about this change (though I really dont like it and dont understand why its needed) but the direction its taking us in terms of development and setting precedent for future changes. It seems that this whole concept is that eve is no fun to play if you dont have all the skills you want when you want... so where does the progression of this way of thinking take us? I quite enjoy the RPG aspect of a supposid MMORPG 
I do too. Some think we are a dying breed, but i saw a kid who couldn't be more than 12 reading a comic book yesterday, with no iphone/pad/notebook/laptop in sight. I should have snapped a picture. It means some of us are still being born lol.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.10.21 13:22:13 -
[39] - Quote
afkalt wrote:General Lootit wrote:afkalt wrote:Go watch fanfest videos and check out what happens to newbros who chase PvE. Actully I already posted that link. You are not so thoughtful, are you? So you've watched it all and understood it. Understood that people levelling their ravens/chasing PvE have horrible retention. Understood that you yourself are feeling pressured to buy these packs to "compete" (hello there Moby D) Understood that you can buy these with isk Yet somehow not understood that the blindingly obvious extension of that is people ratting to skill up with the end game of them quitting even faster because ratting is now tied to "progression".
It's amazing to me that CCP doesn't realize this potential unintended consequence (or the others we've pointed out). By giving people short cuts, they devalue the experience overall, possibly leading to faster loses of players than they experienced before. EVE isn't just a game about fun, it's a hobby about achievement (and thus pride).
"Leveling your raven" is an achievement (even if a poor one) that at least keeps people around for a bit. "working 2 extra hours at McBurger joint to afford to buy the SP to level the raven to the point where it can do boring lvl 4 missions" is not an achievement lol, it's a recipe for quitting EVE. |
Jenn aSide
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2015.11.11 20:41:09 -
[40] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Danmal wrote:CCP loses north of 75 percent of users in the first month (that was data from 2005 So what, it's a very healthy niche product which by definition means most people won't like it but the ones that do stick around for a long time. Apart from that: 25% retention is hilariously high, have you seen the number dropoff 3 months after any new MMO launch? According to your logic all programs on TV should be X-factor clones because that's what a lot of people watch. There's already 38 of them but fck it, lets make another one! What if some show isn't at all like that and it proudly stands there having a completely different target audience. Not as huge as the x-clones but it's there, they're quite loyal and... there's no competition so they're doing just fine.
Well said.
Quote:
What would you think of someone who wants to watch X-factor clones, then tries that programme for a few months and suddenly demands that it gets changed to yet another x-clone with the reasoning "that's what a lot of people watch dontyouknow". How much of a moron would you think that person is?
It gets worse, the people begging for the show to be an X-factor clone aren't conscious of the fact that that is exactly what they are asking for. Nor do they even consider what happens to most X-Factor clones (cancellation, because why watch an x-factor clone when x-factor actually exists). |
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